Available across all syndicated platforms including Spotify and Apple Podcasts

'How did it make sense?' explores the local rationality of those involved in doing what they did. Each podcast lasts about 45 minutes and aims to follow a similar format. Initially, we will look at the 'first story' of the event which is normally scant in details and triggers an emotional response, and then we will look at the 'second story' that looks at the goal conflicts, the ambiguities, the assumptions, the tensions, and the trade-offs that led to those involved doing what they did. This context-rich story is the one that learning opportunities come from, not focusing on the counterfactuals that often arise from 'first stories'.  

Ep. 5: Ken Wylie and Gareth Lock

In this episode, I had the absolute pleasure of sitting down with Ken Wylie, an incredible adventure educator and risk management expert from Vancouver Island. We dive into one pivotal event—a tragic backcountry skiing accident—that shaped his perspective on risk, decision-making, and the social and psychological factors that influence our choices. Ken doesn’t just tell a first story, the surface-level narrative most of us default to—he unpacks the deeper, second story, challenging us to reflect on how we navigate uncertainty and growth in our own lives.

Ep. 4: Abhijith Balakrishnan and Gareth Lock

Gareth and Abhijith delve into the complexities of maritime safety, focusing on the audit process and its implications. They discuss the dichotomy between first and second stories in safety management, emphasising how audits often fail to capture the true dynamics of operations at sea. The conversation highlights the challenges faced by auditors, the influence of regulations on safety practices, and the need for a shift towards a more nuanced understanding of safety that goes beyond mere compliance. Abhijith shares insights from his experiences in ship management and safety, advocating for a more holistic approach to auditing that considers the realities of the maritime environment.

Ep. 3: Josh Bryant and Gareth Lock

Gareth and Josh Bryant talk through a hand-crush injury. The incident serves as a case study for exploring deeper causes of workplace events and shifting the focus from blaming individuals to understanding systemic factors. Josh details how the company responded to the event by implementing the “4Ds” (what's dumb, what’s difficult, what’s different, and what’s dangerous) as part of their operational learning. Josh emphasises the importance of learning teams, a method they adopted to foster open communication and understand the context behind worker actions. This approach led to a more positive safety culture and a shift from blame to curiosity. He also stresses the importance of safety not being proprietary and the need for sharing best practices.

Ep. 2: Ron Gantt and Gareth Lock

Ron Gantt, HSE Director at Yondr and cohost of the Punk Rock Safety podcast, joins Gareth to explore how mundane work often masks complex systems with hidden risks. Ron shares his experience with a Midwestern utility company where trash collectors faced unrealistic safety policies, conflicting pressures like speed and customer service, and inadequate training, leading to an unstable and potentially dangerous work environment.

Ron highlights the importance of understanding worker adaptations as indicators of systemic issues and emphasises the need for deep, vertical audits that focus on understanding work as done rather than relying solely on broad compliance-based systems. 

Ep. 1: Jayson Coil and Gareth Lock

This episode features a conversation with Jayson Coil, an Assistant Fire Chief and incident commander. Coil discusses the importance of understanding the “local rationality” or how seemingly irrational decisions made by people in complex situations often make sense within their own context. Jayson explains how the lack of personnel in critical support roles like logistics and planning, often due to competing demands from their primary employers, presents a significant challenge to wildfire management. Finally, Jayson highlights the importance of learning from past experiences, particularly by sharing tacit knowledge gained through experience and avoiding the tendency to simply attribute outcomes to luck or skill.